Oren Cass, Paul Krugman & Mariana Mazzucato on Trumponomics

On with Kara Swisher

New York Magazine

News Commentary, News, Society & Culture

4.2 • 2.2K Ratings

🗓️ 17 February 2025

⏱️ 62 minutes

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Summary

Last week, President Trump signed a memorandum calling for reciprocal tariffs on countries that charge fees on US exports and called his 25% tariff order on all steel and aluminum imports “the beginning of making America rich again.” But is it? We turn to three brilliant economists for their takes (and disagreements) on the real impact Trumponomics will have on the U.S. economy. Kara leads a spirited and insightful conversation about industrial policy, the efficacy of Trump’s tariffs, how worried we should really be about the U.S. 's trade deficit, the odds of an AI bubble and bail out, and, of course, DOGE. Featuring: Oren Cass, the founder and chief economist of American Compass, a conservative think tank, and a contributing opinion writer for the Financial Times and the New York Times. Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize-winning economist who writes a newsletter on Substack, teaches at the City University of New York Graduate Center, and recently retired his New York Times Opinion column after writing it from 2000 to 2025. And Mariana Mazzucato, a professor of economics at University College London, where she is Founding Director of the UCL Institute for Innovation & Public Purpose and author of the hugely influential book, The Entrepreneurial State. This episode was recorded on Monday, February 10. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram and TikTok @onwithkaraswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Looking at my image here and realizing that I've got a gin bottle.
0:04.8	That's good.
0:05.4	In honor of Pete Hetzeth, I guess, but maybe I should move it out of the frame.
0:09.8	Starting hot.
0:10.7	No, what the hell?
0:26.0	Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:28.4	This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
0:43.0	The Trump administration is taking Washington by storm again, and their shock and all campaign against the federal government is so intense that it's easy to lose sight of how their policies will impact the American economy. The price of eggs is up people. Inflation is also up, which Trump said he would take care of on day one. Well, we'll wait past that, and prices are still high.
0:48.8	We'll see what happens, and since I don't know anything, I've gathered three brilliant economists
0:53.2	discussed tariffs, tax cuts,
0:55.0	deregulation, industrial policy, AI, and of course, Doge, which I'm now calling Doggy.
1:00.9	Orrin Cass is the founder and chief economist of American Compass, a conservative think tank
1:05.6	and a contributing opinion writer for the Financial Times and the New York Times.
1:09.8	He was a key advisor to Mitt Romney's 2008 and 2012
1:13.3	presidential campaigns, and he's a leading thinker of the new right, which challenges
1:17.0	conservative free market orthodoxy. I think he's a really great thinker, even if sometimes
1:22.1	I don't agree with them, and it's important to get people you don't agree with into great discussions.
1:26.7	Paul Krugman is a Nobel Prize winning economist who teaches at the City University of New York's
1:31.4	Graduate Center. He also writes a newsletter on Substac, which I recommend you subscribe to,
1:36.5	and he wrote an op-ed column for the New York Times from 2000 to 2025.
1:42.2	Mariana Matsukato is a professor of economics at the University College London, where she was a founding director of the UCL Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose.
1:52.3	She's the winner of multiple international prizes, including Italy's highest civilian honor, and she advises policymakers around the world.
	...

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