Hello, I'm Paige, and this is the Euro Intelligence podcast covering current affairs in the EU and Euro area.

I am joined by Wolfgang and Susanna, directors of Eurointelligence in Oxford.

Guys, the big story this week was the G7 summit, today the NATO summit, and soon the EU-US summit.

Wolfgang, you made the very difficult argument that in order to govern, you have to make

choices and that this could include choosing to address climate change before addressing human

rights concerns. Could you elaborate on that? Well, we talked about the, or I wrote about the

trade of we ultimately have to face in our foreign policy about whether we prioritize

climate change or whether we prioritize human rights.

In an ideal world, you do everything.

It's just that, A, we don't live in an ideal world, and B, we've tried everything.

And trying to commingle all these goals hasn't really worked for us all that well.

We're all behind on the climate change targets.

Human rights abuses abound.

Russia, China, Belarus, even, you know, countries, some countries in the EU are less democratic today than there were a few years ago.

We can't say that the West has been particularly successful.

And the climate change catastrophe is not just about the climate.

It is about the economic consequences.

It is about migration.

It's about poverty.

And you could say it is about the fundamental human rights of a lot of people.

In an indirect way, it is a human rights agenda, but not the kind of democracy, civil rights

type of agenda that we have been pursuing in the past.

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