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Hello and welcome to the London Review of Books podcast. My name is Thomas Jones. And this week I'm

talking to John Lancaster, a contributing editor at the LRB, an author of many books, most recently

Reality and Other Stories. He has a piece in the current issue of the paper on

cheating in sport, or more specifically on the things you see happen while you're watching or

playing a game that are against its rules, but sometimes within its ethos. Hello John and thank you

very much for joining me again. Hi Tom. Thanks for having me. So the Olympics are underway and Great

Britain have won their first medals.

But as you say in the piece, the kind of cheating you're interested in isn't the kind that goes on or can go on, I should say, at the Olympics.

Especially doping and everything around doping, which comes under the rubric of what you call invisible cheating.

You talk about visible cheating.

And in football, if we begin with football,

the question of diving on the one hand

and professional fouls on the other.

And there were two classic examples of diving

that you mentioned in your piece

...