Tom Mujski from Eagle Point. It's really great to have you on Seeking Alpha.

There's such a preponderance of ETS, such a big part of the market right now.

What are your thoughts moving forward?

How do you navigate within that new paradigm, within that new reality of so many

ETFs?

How do you think about that moving forward as a CLO?

Sure.

Well, in the CLO market, today, ETFs own what I would approximate to be about

2% of the total amount of CLO's outstanding, principally concentrated at the AAA part of the

capital structure. So if we're down at the equity and double B part, we're down at the bottom.

We get the most return in a typical situation, but perhaps the

greatest, you know, greater risk of loss. These folks sit up at the top of the capital structure

have, I don't believe there's ever been a CLO AAA that failed to repay principal or even fail to

pay timely interest. So a different risk profile, certainly the price of the securities can move up and down.

What we've seen so far, in general, are lots and lots of inflows into the ETF world for CLOs.

I think research I read said over $10 billion just in 2024 alone. So that's good, actually, for

ECC in one way in that that's creating a lot of new demand for CLO

AAAs. And as we're issued worthy equity, we like the spread on AAAs to be as low as possible,

because therefore we get more equity distributions to us, which we like. Now one day, that will

change. One day, these ETFs will have outflows, and investors will say, you know, for whatever

reason, decide to take their money out of the CLO ETF, AAA ETFs.

And those ETFs will have no choice but to sell, not because the portfolio manager is making

...