Welcome to Hard Talk from the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Saker.

In this program recorded on the 21st of August, I'm in Rome to talk to a man who has played a significant role in the rise of Western Europe's most powerful, successful, far-right political party.

Nicola Procaccaccini is a founding member of the Brothers of Italy movement, led by his friend and confidant,

Georgia Meloni.

For the past two years, Miss Maloney has been Italy's prime minister, and Mr. Procacchini is a member of the

European Parliament, co-chair of the Conservatives and Reformists

Group of MEPs. It has been a startling rise for a party which just a few years ago commanded

public support in the low single digits and was condemned by its critics as a haven for remnants of Italy's post-war

neo-fascist movement. Much of the credit for that transformation must go to Georgia

Meloni. She distanced herself from the Mussolini nostalgia, she condemned overt racism

within the ranks, and she focused on key messages,

a tough stand against uncontrolled migration, a campaign of hostility towards an overbearing EU,

and a brand of economic populism that promised to revive Italy after years of decline.

She won enough votes to put together a hard-right coalition after elections in 2022, and her party was the big winner in Italy's European parliamentary

elections earlier this year. It is a case study in hard-right rule, which is being watched closely far beyond Italy.

So what lessons can be learned?

Well, Nicola Procaccini joins me now.

Welcome to Hard Talk.

Thank you for your invitation.

It's great to have you on the program.

Now, your party, brothers of Italy, led by Georgia Meloni, has been in power

here in Italy for almost two years now. Would you say that power and responsibility have

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