Hello and welcome to rock and roll politics, the podcast with me, Steve Richards, where we try and delve deep

put into context the volcanic eruptions around British politics, which seem to be happening

on a near daily basis at the moment. And I thought, therefore, there is no better minister

to interview than the Cabinet office minister Nick Thomas Simmons

because he arrived in government as a friend of Kirstama's, but crucially also the author of

biographies of Harold Wilson most recently and cabinet ministers like Nye Bevan.

And therefore does arrive with a great sense of context, not only about

leadership speculation that has haunted other prime ministers too, but also about how government

works and worked in the periods he has written about in the past. And that's really part of the

theme of our conversation because,

you know, frankly, there's no point asking ministers to sort of reflect candidly on the position

of Kirstama because none of them can do that. And therefore, you know, obviously they remain

loyal to him in every public outlet and no doubt in some cases privately too.

So we didn't go there, but it was very interesting to hear his reflections on other prime

ministers and what they have done in these similar kind of situations which arise surprisingly often. And also, of course,

amongst his many responsibilities is Brexit. And he gives us an update into his thinking about

how we move on from Brexit, the negotiations which he began in opposition very intensively and subsequently,

and whether we are moving closer in many manifestations.

And obviously I ask about whether that would ultimately be the Single Market and Customs Union.

So let's hear from Nick Thomas Simmons on making sense of now from his insights into the past.

Nick Thomas Simmons, you, I think unique for this government, arrived right at the heart of government in the cabinet office with a deep sense of how

other Labour governments responded to the demands of power. Most recently with your book on

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