Hey, this is Boss Chris and Kara editor of Jackavan.

I know everyone has a podcast these days, but The Dig and Dan Denver are really, really good.

And Dan needs your help to help pay the people who work on the show and reproduce their labor power.

And as every Marxist knows, it's very important.

To support this show, go to patreon.com and look up the dig.

That's Patreon, p-A-T-R-E-O-N.com.

Thanks, and I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to The Dig, a podcast from Jacobin Magazine.

My name is Daniel Denver, and I'm broadcasting from Providence, Rhode Island.

On this show, I normally serve up ice-cold, well-digested takes.

Sometimes, however, something important happens, and I find

someone who can help me understand it on short notice. Last weekend's election in France,

which advanced the far-right national fronts Marine Le Pen and neoliberal centrist Emmanuel Macron

to a runoff, is one such depressing eventuality.

My guest today is Sebastian Budgin, a senior editor for Verso Books and member of the

editorial board at Historical Materialism. Pardon me as I serially butcher French pronunciations.

Music Sebastian Bajan, welcome to the dig.

Thank you.

Well, I'm happy to be here.

So the two main political parties in France seemingly have utterly collapsed, sending Marine Le Pen and Macron to a runoff.

What happened?

Well, I think you're right.

The political center, the two pillars of the political establishment in France, have, as

...