4.9 • 1.8K Ratings
🗓️ 15 July 2025
⏱️ 80 minutes
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It’s not hyperbole to suggest that the imperialist wars waged upon the Global South by the United States and the imperialist bloc that it leads are akin to a protracted genocide. The sheer amount of death, carnage, destruction, immiseration, crushed dreams, is almost unfathomable. But it’s real. And it’s the status quo for what we love to refer fondly to as "Western Civilization." And there’s no other force more responsible for implementing this protracted genocide on the Third World than NATO. And in today’s conversation—Part 2 of our ongoing series on NATO—we’re going to explore the role that this military alliance has played in the long war on the Third World.
Pawel Wargan is an organizer and researcher based in Berlin and the coordinator of the secretariat of the Progressive International. He’s the author of the Monthly Review piece “NATO and the Long War on the Third World” which we’ll be focusing our conversation around today.
In this episode, Pawel tells us about the fascist roots of NATO, its “dark mandate” which ushered in an era of terror against the populations of the Global South leading to a protracted genocide that has left tens of millions dead and even more immiserated. We talk about the way that NATO operates in Africa, Poland, and how NATO has served as a leading opposition to liberation struggles in the Third World and across the globe.
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Related episodes:
Intermission music: "Black Serpent" by Noroth
Covert art: Soviet anti-NATO propaganda poster
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0:00.0 | Imperialism as we know, because it is an extension of capitalism, as we know, because it is an extension of capitalism, its very purpose is to continue expanding. |
0:27.9 | It's very purpose is to continue bringing in more profits and accumulating ever greater |
0:32.5 | shares of global labor and global resources and cannibalizing, in effect, increasing shares of the planet, |
0:39.3 | which is one reason we have the climate and environmental crisis right now. |
0:43.3 | And so having military capacities which are able to prevent that from happening, |
0:49.3 | with the US and Israel failing to topple the Iranian government and failing to topple the Islamic |
0:56.1 | revolution and thereby sustaining a project of economic sovereignty there, that's a very |
1:01.1 | significant defeat for imperialism. |
1:03.8 | And it's a very clear indication that something has changed qualitatively and quantitatively |
1:08.8 | in the balance of power and the international system, where |
1:11.9 | the kind of policies where the West could write roughshod over global South sovereignty are |
1:18.0 | increasingly challenged. |
1:19.3 | You're listening to Upstream. |
1:21.5 | Upstream. |
1:22.5 | Upstream. |
1:23.5 | Upstream. |
1:24.5 | Upstream. |
1:25.5 | A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew |
1:31.3 | about the world around you. |
1:32.3 | I'm Robert Raymond. |
1:34.3 | And I'm Della Duncan. |
1:36.3 | It's not hyperbole to suggest that the imperialist wars waged upon the global south by the United States |
... |
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