Hey, this is John.

And this is Tim.

And this episode of the Bauer Project Podcast, we get to talk again with Dr. Antiret.

That's right.

Tom, right?

Yeah, that's right.

We're able to have a conversation with him about a theme that we've been exploring a

fair amount in the podcast over the last year, which is spiritual powers, spiritual beings.

Yeah, we wanted to pick his brain about specifically how the Apostle Paul talks and thinks about

spiritual powers.

That's right.

Because for the most part, he doesn't use the vocabulary of demons or even angels, but

he consistently uses, yeah, this language of the powers and authorities or the rulers

in the heavenly realm goes right throughout his letters.

Yeah.

And then there's kind of a classic puzzle here.

And Antiret has actually like written and tried to speak into this debate in academic

realm, which is that the same vocabulary used for human institutional powers.

Paul will talk about the Roman government in Romans 13 using the language of the powers

or authorities.

But then there are other places like in the letters to the Ephesians where he talks about

the powers and authorities and cosmic rulers of darkness and evil.

...