When I got Garrett DeVinck on the phone Thursday evening, he was outside the federal courthouse in Oakland, where he'd been watching Elon Musk testify.

Yeah, it's been pretty interesting.

I mean, it's very, very rare that we get to here directly, especially under oath from

Elon Musk.

Garrett reports on tech for the Washington Post, and he's covering this lawsuit in which Elon Musk is suing OpenA.I.

And Sam Altman. First week of the trial is over, and it's already been a pretty big deal.

Lots of media here, lots of members of the public coming to see Elon and a few anti-billionaire

and anti-AI protesters even out front.

And so, yeah, it's been pretty eventful so far.

In an extremely meta moment, someone else outside the courthouse interrupted Garrett so that they could do

their own recording. Sorry, someone just asked me to move because they're doing the podcast.

Oh, that's just crazy. I can literally see like four journalists doing it. And so I'm like,

let me be okay.

This might be a safer place.

Okay, so back to our interview.

So far, this civil trial has been all about Elon,

even though he is the one suing over OpenAI,

moving from a nonprofit to a for-profit company. His personality came up in jury selection. The judge even said in court, the reality is that many people don't like him. But here's the thing. Whatever happens in this case has huge implications, not just for Elon, but for OpenAI and the AI industry in general.

If Elon Musk does win, you know, essentially what he's demanding, if he gets his way, would really upset and upend Open AI.

I mean, this company is planning to go public later this year or early next year. It is,

you know, in a really high-stakes business situation, it's spending billions of dollars building

and running its AI. It's bringing in, you know, a lot of money and revenue, but it needs to

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