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I think people think about sleep deprivation with newborns, but I think it goes all the way up,

doesn't it? You know, a run of five nights with a

toddler awake, you're sleep deprived again. And it doesn't take long for the brain to feel these

effects. You know, it's only like a couple of hours of lost sleep, and we're not working at our

optimum. So it's a space where we need to, like you said, have some compassion and some kindness

for ourselves, remind ourselves how hard it is.

And also, in spite of whether you're sleep deprived or not, looking after a child is really intense.

It's insane, isn't it, what we do, particularly with newborns, where we're learning something completely new.

Yes, and potentially recovering from potentially a traumatic birth with zero

sleep. And then we beat ourselves up. That's the real insanity of it, is then we're beating

ourselves up. Yeah, and there's no other abdominal surgery or really transformative physical

experience we would go through like birth, however you birth,

and then be expected to be awake around the clock. So how do you help parents? What are some of your

sleep philosophies? So I think first of all, we need to talk about what's realistic because

I know we've spoken about newborns and I think most people

are prepared for challenges when it comes to sleep but sleep challenges can like we said they can

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