Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacker. My guest today lives the life of a

wealthy Russian exile in London, not these days an oligarch, though he certainly was, but more of an

anti-Putin lobbyist and campaigner. Mikhail Kodokovsky's fate has been tied to that of Vladimir Putin for decades.

Kodokovsky made a fortune in the Yeltsin years, building his energy company, Yukos, into a colossus

when Russia's oil and gas riches were privatized. This energy oligarch supported and assisted Putin's political rise,

but their relationship soured when Kodokovsky refused to stick solely to business

and started to speak out against corruption. Eventually, Kodokovsky was jailed for 10 years

after a trial which reeked of politics.

In 2013, he was freed and took his family into exile.

And since then, he has become a sharp thorn in Putin's side,

using his contacts and his still considerable wealth to call for change in Russia and the isolation

of Putin. Since the invasion of Ukraine, his has been one of the loudest voices demanding greater

military help for Kiev and tougher Western sanctions on Moscow. But has this war merely exposed the degree to which Kouikovsky,

once Russia's richest man, has lost touch with the realities of his homeland? Well, he joins me now.

Mikhail Kouikovsky, welcome to hard talk.

Dhrastito. Hello.

Western leaders say that Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine must fail.

Do you think they understand what it will take to ensure that Putin's war ends in defeat?

I think they're saying they're going to understand, but I'm not sure that Putin's war ends in defeat. I think that they're

better than before, but I'm not

I'm not sure that they now

understand it better than before, but I'm not

...