Trying to make meaning without the sense of a savior who suffers along with his people is, is, I don't know how people do it.

I mean, I'm sure they do, but I don't know how they do it. Welcome to the Good Faith podcast.

I'm your host, Curtis Chang, and the Good Faith podcast.

It's a production of Redeeming Babel.

And it's where friends who follow Jesus help each other make sense of the world. And one of the hardest things to make sense of

in the world is church abuse. As Christians, we believe the church is supposed to be different

from the wider world. We believe, okay, maybe the world out there is filmed with harmful

actors and lies. But the church, well, it's supposed to be the place of safety and truth because Jesus is

present in his body, right?

But church abuse shatters that belief, because with church abuse, we're confronted with

the reality that the kinds of harm out there in the world also exist within the church.

And the kind of lies told by secular institutions may also be being told by Christian institutions.

So the reality of church abuse begs for more understanding of what's really going on.

And the need to understand church abuse is why I'm so excited for our guest today, Mike Kaspur.

Mike is a leading figure in the world that has helped cast a light on the truth of church abuse.

Mike produced and hosted the rise and fall of Mars Hill, a podcast series which chronicled

the nature of abuse that took place over years in a megachurch

in Seattle called Mars Hill led by a pastor named Mark Driscoll. Mike Cosper's expose has garnered

over 30 million downloads, which is an extraordinary achievement. And that means for many,

many, many, many millions of people, His podcast was a critical education in the nature of

church abuse. Currently, Mike serves as the director of podcasts at Christianity Today, and he just came

out with a book that's in some ways a follow-on to the Mars Hill story. The book is called The Church

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