All right, I'm here with Michael Schirmer, Science Historian. You're also, this is your

magazine, right? Skeptic Magazine. And so also Contributor of Scientific American for 18 years.

So science history is your wheelhouse. So every issue of Skeptic has a particular theme to it.

This one's on energy, nuclear power, anything that's controversial. It's part of the culture wars.

Science has something to say about it. That's my beat. I'm sort of really deeply into science to

the work that I do. Mostly been very focused on the pharmaceutical industry. I started investigating

vaccines, vaccine safety, and started recognizing that the science that we were told was being done

is not actually being done at the level that we think it is. I think the scientific method is

on it. Ventilator taking Remdesivir and could die any second right now. Well, okay, let's clarify

a couple things. So there is a scientific method. It's not perfect. But what's the alternative?

It's just your opinion in my opinion. It's got to be some way that you and I, no matter what our

beliefs are, can go, look, there's the evidence. Now, sometimes the evidence is clear. Sometimes it's

not. It's all right to go on Joe Rogan and talk about it. Yeah. And it's all right to go in some

other show and have the Skeptic debunk it. Whatever. I liked that fact that RFK Jr. went on Rogan

and Rogan offered to pay Peter Hotez. Peter Hotez, $100,000 and that's up to like two million

hours. Yeah. Yeah. And he doesn't want to give RFK Jr. a platform. I happen to think he's wrong

about vaccines. Yeah. And we've written quite a bit in the Skeptic. Here's the claim. Here's

why it's wrong and so on. Well, let's have this conversation now, then, since you're well educated

on it, I'd enjoy this. One of the major claims being made by Robert Kennedy Jr. is that the childhood

vaccine schedule, 16 vaccines were not run through a saline placebo trial, long-term saline placebo

trials, and he's being said that that is misinformation. Okay. Part of this is the what we call

changing the goalposts, moving the goalposts. In fact, the original claim back in the 90s was that

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