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I'm Jonathan Kay.

Some of you might be familiar with Ervin Crystal's definition of a conservative as a liberal who's been mugged by reality.

Well, today's guest is Michael Schellenberger, a one-time progressive activist who's been mugged by reality not once but twice,

once when it came to global warming and energy policy,

and then again on the subject of homelessness.

In his 2020 book, Apocalypse Never, he wrote about his first metaphorical mugging, which

he received when he noticed how his one-time fellow environmentalists were so

doctrinaire about attacking capitalism and industry that they opposed promising strategies to

reduce the world's carbon footprint, especially nuclear energy production and natural gas.

Now, in a new book, Schhelenburger looks at urban policy in regard to homelessness, law

enforcement, drug policy, and mental health.

And while the book's title is provocative, San Francisco,

why progressives ruined cities, his argument is nuanced.

Shellemberger uses his home of San Francisco as a case study in how many progressive activists oppose humane and practical policies such as shelters and psychiatric care because they conflict with utopian ideas that are ideologically fashionable but functionally impossible.

I spoke to Michael Schhelenburger last week over Skype.

Here are excerpts from our conversation.

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