Hello, my name is David Runtzman and this is Talking Politics.

Helen Thompson and I are in a studio in London and we are delighted that we have Michael Lewis

with us who over the past two decades has written the books that explain our world from

finance to sport to psychology and now Trump and the American government.

Talking Politics is brought to you in partnership with the London Review of Books.

Chris Christmas hits thoughts that counts.

Give everyone you know a subscription to the LRB for just 1999 and they'll throw in

a free 2020 calendar featuring some of the best of their fantastic cover art.

Find this special festive offer at lrb.me-forward-slash-christmas.

Michael one of the themes of the fifth risk is that Trump and his people are deeply

ignorant of how government works but that's also a strategic choice.

I mean it really serves their interests to not know it.

How does that work?

How does it work do you think is a political strategy to be running the government

and profoundly ignorant?

I think you've got to make a distinction between Trump and the Trump administration and

I think what we have right now is kind of government by whim at the very top and lots

of people within his administration kind of trying to cover for him in various ways.

So the way it works with Trump is I think that his ignorance gives him a pass to ignore

the consequences of the things he does.

I mean I think if he actually knew what it was he wasn't managing I think he'd go insane.

Even he wouldn't sleep at night.

...