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Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Michael Levin and Joscha Bach: The Shape of Collective Thought

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6606 Ratings

🗓️ 9 November 2022

⏱️ 117 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Michael Levin and Joscha Bach explore the idea of a global mind, collective intelligence, agency, and how morphogenesis might shape cognition. They debate the boundaries between biology and computation, and consider what competence means for cells and societies.- 00:00:00 - Introduction- 00:01:55 - Bach and Levin discuss each other's work- 00:03:34 - Cells as neuron-like units- 00:07:15 - Software as control pattern- 00:10:55 - Academic disciplinary boundaries- 00:14:38 - Perceptron as brain toy model- 00:18:44 - Researcher identity- 00:20:10 - Podcast vs academia benefits- 00:30:04 - Drastic belief changes- 00:38:54 - Memory beyond brain- 00:45:06 - Engrams and storage- 00:47:30 - Transferring memory across species- 00:55:25 - Weissman's barrier- 00:59:25 - Notion of competence- 01:12:10 - Virtualization for unreliable hardware- 01:16:02 - Defining competence- 01:22:35 - Goals and teleology issues- 01:27:34 - Planarian goals and encoded instructions- 01:34:55 - Navigation in morphic space- 01:36:11 - One species' defect as benefit- 01:37:42 - Intelligence trap and bias- 01:39:05 - Applying each other's work- 01:52:25 - General intelligence necessities in cellsSPONSORS:- Drink Trade: 30% off at https://www.drinktrade.com/everything- Uncommon Goods: 15% off your first gift at https://www.uncommongoods.com/podcast/everything- Roman: 20% off first order at https://ro.co/curt- Masterworks: promo code theoriesofeverything at https://www.masterworks.art/toeRESOURCES:- YouTube link: https://youtu.be/kgMFnfB5E_A- http://theoriesofeverything.org- *New* TOE Website (early access to episodes): https://theoriesofeverything.org/- Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal- Crypto: https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt- Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs- iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e- Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything- Michael Levin (Solo TOE podcast): https://youtu.be/Z0TNfysTazc- Michael Levin Theolocution With Chris Fields & Karl Friston: https://youtu.be/J6eJ44Jq_pw- Joscha Bach Theolocution With John Vervaeke: https://youtu.be/rK7ux_JhHM4- Joscha Bach Theolocution With Donald Hoffman: https://youtu.be/bhSlYfVtgww- Joscha Bach (Solo TOE podcast): https://youtu.be/3MNBxfrmfmI Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. SPONSOR: I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE FOLLOW: Substack | Spotify | YouTube | Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

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0:11.0

Michael Levin's work on regulating intractable pattern formation in living systems, has made him one of the most compelling

0:20.9

biologists of our time. In translation, this means that his team is sussing out how to develop limbs, regenerate limbs, how to generate minds, and even life extension by manipulating electric signals rather than genetics or epigenetics. His work is something that I consider to be worthy of a Nobel Prize, and I don't think I've said that about anyone on the podcast. Michael Levin's previous podcast on Toe is in the description.

0:40.4

That's a solo episode with him, where we go into a two-hour deep dive, as well as there's a theolocation, so that is him and another guest, just like today, except between Carl Fristin and Chris Fields on consciousness. Yoshabak is widely considered to be the pinnacle of an AI researcher, dealing with emotion, modeling, and multi-agent systems. A large focus of Bach is to build a model of the mind from strong AI. Speaking of minds, Bach is one of the most inventive minds in the field of computer science. And has appeared several times on Toe Prior. Again, there's a solo episode. There's also a theolocation between Yoshabakh and Donald Hoffman on consciousness, and

1:13.2

Yoshabakh and John Vervaki also on consciousness and reality.

1:16.1

Biology has much to teach us about artificial intelligence and vice versa.

1:20.2

This discussion between two brilliant researchers is something that I'm extremely lucky, blessed,

1:26.1

fortunate to be a part of, as well as us as collective as an audience

1:29.8

that are fortunate enough to witness.

1:31.4

Approximately 30 minutes into the conversation, you'll see two sponsors.

1:35.1

They are Masterworks and Roman.

1:36.6

I implore you not to skip it as firstly watching it supports tow directly, and then secondly,

1:41.9

they're fascinating companies in and of themselves.

2:01.1

Additionally, you'll hear from one more trade coffee around the one and a half hour mark. Thank you and enjoy this theolocation between Yoshabakh and Michael Levin. Welcome, both Professor Michael Levin and Yoshabak. It's an honor to have you on the Toll podcast. Again, both of you and then together right now. Thank you. It's great to be here.

2:07.7

Likewise. I enjoy very much being here and look forward to this conversation. I look forward to it as well. So we'll start off with the question of what is it that you, Michael, find most interesting about

2:13.1

Yoshah's work, and then Yosha will go for you toward Michael. Yeah, I really enjoy the breadth.

2:20.3

So I've been looking, I think I've probably read almost everything on your website,

2:24.3

you know, the short kind of blog pieces and everything.

2:27.3

And yeah, I'm a big fan of the breadth of tackling a lot of the different issues that you do with respect to,

...

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