Michael Levin and Anna Ciaunica: Consciousness Beyond the Brain

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 29 January 2025

⏱️ 87 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Developmental biologist Michael Levin and cognitive scientist Anna Ciaunica discuss how cellular intelligence reshapes our understanding of consciousness, memory, and embodiment. They argue that the self emerges from the collective behavior of cells and that biology’s goal‑directed systems extend far beyond the brain.- 00:00 - Opening- 01:42 - Biggest myths in biology and neuroscience- 03:18 - Anna on self emerging from cells- 04:10 - Critique of adult‑centric views- 05:15 - Dropping old conceptual epicycles- 07:45 - Continuity from single cells to minds- 09:28 - Memory, metaphors, shifting perspectives- 10:46 - Bridging silos and interdisciplinarity- 13:04 - Development, evolution, goal‑directed systems- 17:05 - Expanding goal‑seeking in biology- 25:12 - Depression, body states, self‑regulation- 31:57 - Aging, goals, “having nothing left to do”- 41:10 - Pregnancy, immune systems, sharing a self- 51:08 - Interconnectedness as fundamental to selfhood- 57:56 - Story we tell vs agency of thoughts- 1:07:00 - Rewriting “you”: caterpillars, butterflies, memory- 1:16:15 - Final thoughts: self as ongoing embodied process- 1:24:01 - Closing remarks and where to find moreSPONSORS:- I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOERESOURCES:- Michael Levin's website: https://drmichaellevin.org/- Anna Ciaunica's website: https://annaciaunica.fr/- Curt's previous talk with Michael: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8iFtaltX-s&t=3924s&ab_channel=CurtJaimungal- Listen on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/SpotifyTOE- Become a YouTube Member (Early Access Videos): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdWIQh9DGG6uhJk8eyIFl1w/join- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt- Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. FOLLOW: Substack | Spotify | YouTube | Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	If you don't change, you will die.
0:01.6	If you do change, you are no longer yourself.
0:03.4	What all of this is about, it's not really philosophy. It's empirical claims about which set of tools is going to apply. You are in no way tied to the story that was told by your past self. We need to figure out how basically we are linked to other individuals to understand the self. What you're really talking about is ways to relate to that system and gain optimal interaction that enriches both sides. biology, neuroscience, and philosophy
0:24.7	are is ways to relate to that system and gain optimal interaction that enriches both sides.
0:26.7	Biology, neuroscience, and philosophy often seem to walk separate paths,
0:33.6	but two radical thinkers are challenging our most basal assumptions about consciousness, memory, and the self.
0:38.3	Mike 11, a pioneer in developmental biology, has discovered that intelligence isn't limited to brains, rather it extends all the way down to single cells and even bacterial colonies.
0:43.8	Alongside him is cognitive scientist and philosopher Anna Chownika, who upends the mainstream
0:48.3	view of consciousness and selfhood. My name is Kurt Zymungle, and this was part of my three-day
0:52.6	tour at Harvard, Tufts, and MIT, where I recorded five podcasts, including this theolocation with Mike Eleven, distinguished professor at Tufts University, and Anna Chowneika, who's currently based at the Center for Philosophy of Science at the University of Lisbon, Portugal, and at the Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience University College London.
1:09.2	The other recordings are with Jacob Barnes, which is over seven hours long on quantum theory
1:14.0	and Manolas Kellis of MIT.
1:16.2	There's also Professor William Hahn, a computer scientist, and that was filmed live at the MIT
1:20.1	Media Lab.
1:21.1	Subscribe to get notified.
1:22.5	Levin and Chauenica's groundbreaking theolocation raises provocative questions that challenge
1:26.8	the foundations of neuroscience
1:28.2	and philosophies such as what is the self can you be yourself without others is your memory yours to
1:34.6	control and what if thoughts have minds of their own what's the largest myth in your respective fields
1:42.9	that you have to dispel even to your colleagues?
1:46.7	Boy, there's a lot.
1:49.7	Let's see.
	...

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