I'm Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic and this is the Atlantic interview.

I'll be talking with Masia Gessen, the great journalist and writer and activist who's been doing some of the most

incisive work on Russia and the future of democracy.

Masha's newest book is called The Future is History, how totalitarianism reclaimed Russia.

In it, she talks about how Vladimir Putin, against the

odds, has kept control over his vast empire. It's holding together as a result

of sort of a combination of both fear and greed.

So Putin either installs fear in the regions or buys them off.

Hours after I interviewed Masha for this podcast, it was announced that she had won the National Book Award for Non Fiction,

which means that two great things happened to her that day.

In our conversation, we talk about the future of democracy, about Putin, and of course about Donald Trump.

Do you think Donald Trump was brought to power by Russians or by Americans? I think Donald Trump was brought to power by Russians or by Americans.

I think Donald Trump was brought to power by Americans.

Do you think we were over-emphasizing Russia's nefarious, either intent or actual actions in this moment?

These are leading questions, Jeff, but yes, absolutely. I do think that we're over-emphasizing it, and I think we're

over-emphasizing it at the expense of actually being able to think about the election

in an evil way. I mean, there's something very important to happen my Americans voted for Trump.

A lot of people in this country feel the system of representative democracy that hasn't worked

for them for a long, long time.

And those are the issues that this election

gives us an unfortunate opportunity to engage with.

And engaging instead with the Russia conspiracy takes up that bandwidth.

...