I'm Adam Grant, and this is taken for granted, my podcast with the TED Audio Collective.

I'm an organizational psychologist, and my job is to rethink how we work, lead, and live.

My guest today is familiar to listeners of work life, actually to pretty much anyone who listens to podcasts or reads books, Malcolm Gladwell.

Malcolm and I find ourselves on stage together about once a year, and he's my favorite sparring partner.

It's the closest I'll ever come to being the karate kid or Rocky Balboa.

A few weeks ago, as part of the tour for my new book Think Again,

Malcolm and I did a live chat on the audio platform Clubhouse about what we're rethinking.

It built on a rollicking discussion we had back when Malcolm was on tour for his most recent book.

So we're going to do something unusual here.

We're going to play the highlights from both conversations.

In the fall of 2019, I hosted Malcolm in my Authors at Warton series. He was launching his book talking to strangers.

It's about why we misread people who we have limited information on. The book discusses

judgments that police officers make, especially of people of

color. And although the world has changed some since we recorded that conversation, I think you'll

find many of Malcolm's observations on race, particularly prescient. I came in thinking about some of the

interesting tensions between his books. Blank was about how surprisingly accurate our snap

judgments can be, but talking to strangers is about how inaccurate they are. And Outliers was about

how the rich get richer, but David and Goliath is about how the underdog can beat the favorite.

Malcolm Gladwell, welcome back to Penn.

Thank you.

So I have noticed over the last couple years that you seem to really enjoy contradicting yourself.

I do. Yeah. Why?

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