The clip you're about to hear comes from my interview with Spiral Steve Lee on Bitcoin Builders.

Bitcoin Builders, as you guys know, is my new show that's all about this Cambrian explosion of creativity and entrepreneurship happening in and around Bitcoin and Lightning.

And Steve is right at the center of that.

Spiral is the division of Block that's totally focused on helping Bitcoin grow in whatever

ways they see fit.

It has a grants program and it works on individual initiatives such as the Lightning Developer

Kit.

In this clip, Steve and I discuss how lightning can be and needs to be more non-custodial

and what it'll take to get there.

If you enjoy this clip, please go check out Bitcoin Builders.

You can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Matt O'Dell tweeted recently, something like,

The Mental Burden of Using Lightning in a Sovereign Way is exhausting compared to on-chain Bitcoin.

Managing Lightning

nodes makes me appreciate Bitcoin so much more. I think you guys quote tweeted that and said

on it. But I thought that was a great framing for this, for this challenge. He's exactly right.

Lightning is tremendously more complicated than Bitcoin itself. It's a complicated protocol.

And it's to a point now where the user experience for Lightning is pretty darn good if you're

using a custodial wallet.

But non-custodial still remains a big hurdle.

There are some examples like the Phoenix wallet on mobile, which is non-custodial.

And it's a pretty good user experience. They've done a

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