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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of IHeart Radio.

Good morning. This is Laura.

Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

Today's episode is going to be a slightly longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.

So today I am delighted to welcome Eric Reese to Before Breakfast.

Eric is the creator of the Lean Startup Method.

He is also the author of The Lean Startup and the brand new book, Incorruptible. So Eric, welcome to this show. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to have you here. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Sure, yeah. I was one of those people that grew up programming computers. I couldn't believe it when I found out you could get paid for computer programming.

Like it was a job you could have. I was so excited as a kid. And I thought technology was the most powerful force in the universe. So I wanted to learn to harness it. And my career is basically a series of me realizing that there's something more impactful than whatever I previously thought was the most powerful force in the universe. So when I found out that technology is created by human beings, I realized that actually management is a more powerful force. And lately, I've been helping so many companies develop these incredible management systems only to watch at the board level as they get dismantled. And I realized, wait a minute, governance is even more powerful than management. So it's kind of been like digging, digging down into the substrate layers that power our modern world. That's kind of how it's spelled. Yeah, I think a lot of people hear the word governance and their eyes kind of glaze over. Oh, God, it's so boring. It sounds like the worst thing ever. And since, I mean, you're kind of known for talking about companies in the startup stage, like the early stage. It seems like this new book is about how not to fall apart as you become a grown up, right? That you can actually transition into middle age and maybe even

a ripe old age as a company. I'm curious what did lead you in that direction of making that pivot.

Yeah, listen, I've actually helped, I don't know how many companies now start and have success. I've personally helped people

create billions of dollars in personal wealth. I've been around Silicon Valley and it's

incredible engine of wealth creation for a long time. So I'm very proud of that work and I think it's

amazing. I'm very proud of the people who have done that successfully. And yet I have also been

keenly aware of the dark underside of this whole thing, the human costs.

And when I say that, people instantly think they know what I'm talking about.

And it really depends on what their background is, what I'm talking about.

Is it the like the mistreatment of employees and the burnout?

Is it the loss that those founders feel themselves when the creation that they made,

they lose control of it and become something

that they come to hate? Is it about the environmental or community effects of our environment?

Like, there's so many things. It's funny. I say the negative effects. Everyone thinks they know

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