Welcome back to the podcast, bribes, swindle, or steel.

I'm Alexandra Rogge, and today we're revisiting the Bernie Madoff story with Jim Campbell,

author of Madoff Talks, uncovering the untold story behind the most notorious Ponzi scheme in history. Jim is the host of the nationally syndicated radio show, business talk with Jim Campbell,

where he's interviewed Elliot Spitzer, Dennis Kozlowski, Rumi Khan, among others.

But today we're talking about Bernie Madoff.

Jim, thank you for joining me.

My honor, Alexander. I look forward to it.

Thanks for having me.

We have had Diana Enriquez on the podcast, Madoff's biographer, and Ike Sorkin,

Madoff's lawyer. This is really the first time when we're speaking to somebody who had the sort

of access to the whole family that you had. Business crime is apparently both vast and a very

small world. So there's some overlap here.

But perhaps you could just start by telling us what you think would surprise people most about your book.

I'm a big fan of Diana Enriquez, by the way. The big difference in our books is 10 years down the road.

I have much bigger insight into all the systemic failure part of this.

She was pretty much focused on Bernie bio.

But now, what's the most surprising thing?

There's two big things and then some other.

But the first big thing is obviously Bernie himself getting into his mind.

And I don't know if everybody knows this, but Bernie ran a highly successful, legitimate market making business, meaning he executed trades primarily for

discount brokers like Schwab and their clients. That business was worth $3 billion at its peak

in and of itself, no Ponzi scheme.

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