Hi, it's Ian Biefie Botham. I am lucky enough to be the guest editor for the today program.

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You're listening to The Best of Today podcast brought to you today by our guest editor, Lord Botham, Ian Beefy Botham, former England all-rounder and crossbench peer.

It's Lord Botham to whom Ben Stokes, the current England cricket captain, has most often been compared.

I spoke to them both across a Zoom call over three continents,

and I started by asking Ian Botham what he thought made Stokes such an effective leader.

He doesn't go out to lose.

He goes out to win, and it's that kind of attitude.

And you've got a great combination there with Baz, Brenna McCullum and Ben Stokes. And what it boils down to

is both want to win and win well. And it rubs off on the side. And I think the side, a few months ago,

didn't have that persona. But now I think the boys are really enjoying their cricket

and to do as well as they are down in Pakistan, which is hard. It's always hard down there

because of the pitches don't usually give you much. What I've seen, I've really enjoyed.

I don't get up very often at 4 in the morning to watch a game of cricket, but I have watched

a few strange hours. I've enjoyed it.

Ben, a lot of people, because of the success you're having in Pakistan and elsewhere,

talk about you as if you're, and they describe you as a natural leader.

Had you given much thought to leadership before you took on this position of England captain?

Have you actually spent years thinking about what it is that makes an effective leader,

or does it just come naturally to you?

No, not really. One thing that I think I've always been very mindful of is never expect anybody else to do something that I wouldn't. And just to go back there to beefy's coin, if the ambition

of winning is greater than the fear of losing, then you're always going to be okay.

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