Well, this episode of Grant's interest rate observer of the air is brought to you in part by ZipRecruiter.

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And it is brought to you in part by away travel.

And if you are traveling, don't travel without this very,

very fine suitcase. Let us, let's talk to Adam Cohen.

Who is the progenitor of Covenant Review founded in 2005, the world's very first boutique

research outfit devoted to the fine print in corporate bond indentured covenants and the footnotes

there too, Not unimportant those

footnotes. And joining me from Grants is the great Evergreen, the deputy editor of Grants, and Fabiano

Santin, who does so much of our excellent credit work. And as always, it's Eric Whitehead at the

dials. Hey, Adam, thank you for being with us. This is kind of an 11-year anniversary because I see from the grants archives, not from my own memory, I confess, but I see from the archives that we wrote a piece about you in June 1, 2007. And the headline would seem to be as applicable today as it was then. The headline reads, in full, quote, read the footnotes.

Still good advice, Adam? I think it sure is. And approximately one year after you wrote that article,

a lot of the troubles started from people not read the footnotes. That really, you know, 08 was when you

started seeing all the, a lot of exchange

offers happen from failed LBOs, and the game's just gotten more intense since then.

How does the prevailing level of credit protection, if any, compare to that prevailing

on the eve of the great sorrows of 2008 and other periods of exceptionally optimistic investing and loose

underwriting.

My most eloquent response would be ugh.

So I really, I feel like things have gotten quite a bit worse on a few metrics.

One is that the kinds of loopholes you used to see

...