For sure, I always say that organized religion and organized crime are very similar, right?

Because when you're there in the family, you're fiercely loved.

And when you begin to deviate and you find yourself pushed to the periphery,

well, it's like horse heads in the bed and concrete shoes.

Hello, and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it.

Today's pod is a candid conversation with John Pavlovitz.

John is a writer, pastor, storyteller, and activist from Wake Forest, North Carolina.

I'm having him on the show because not only is he a thought leader publishing best-selling books,

but over the past six years, his blog, Stuff That Needs To Be Said,

has found its way into the National Zeke Geist and into a diverse and worldwide audience,

recently passing 100 million views. A 25-year veteran of church ministries,

John is kind of an anomaly in today's Christian community, with his deep commitment to equality,

diversity, and justice, both inside and outside of his faith. His best-selling books include

a bigger table, hope and other superpowers, and the most recent, if God is love, don't be a jerk,

which was just published this past September. I found John around the same time a lot of people

did. Immediately after Trump was elected when he published a piece called, This Is Why We Grieve

Today, which explained the profound sadness so many people were feeling after that result.

He spoke to me in a way that resonated, from a place of spirituality that I'd given up on.

Here was this man, still part of the church that I had no part in, who really seemed to get it,

who connected right with the heart of an issue, and spoke with the kind of authority only

someone who is in it for others, and not themselves can really do. I have followed him ever since,

and his writing is not only something that gives me what faith is supposed to offer, like

...