Welcome to the Crazy Love podcast. Two classmates, 30 years of ministry, and one question that

wouldn't go away. Am I truly loved by God? Today, Francis Chan sits down with longtime friend

Pastor Ken Murphy to talk about the drift

from joy into performance and the moment a revelation of God's grace finally broke through.

This is a conversation about moving from working to be loved to living from a love that

never changes.

It's the heartbeat of Francis' new book Book Beloved, an invitation to trade insecurity for assurance

and worshipful joy.

I think it's pretty crazy that I ran into that guy in New Zealand, Michael.

How long ago was that?

Like a year ago, I'm in New Zealand,

just got done speaking at the airport. Someone calls my name. I don't recognize him. And he goes,

I went to seminary with you. And I go, oh, shoot. You know, I just don't like to run into people

from seminary. Because two reasons. One, I feel like that was the

worst version of me. Secondly, all sorts of things have been said about me since I've been to

seminary and it's like, what does this guy think of me? Anyways, he brings up, Ken Murphy was just out here.

And honestly, there was a part of me again where half of me is like,

oh, Ken, that was like the one guy I liked in seminary.

And then there's the other side of like, oh, shoot,

what does he think of me now you know because there's just

been so much drama over there and I don't know just feels so misrepresented

but anyways I got your number called you and I don't think it was coincidence

...