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into today's episode. Hey, this is John Gordon with the John Gordon podcast. And today my guest is Jeff Wittle.

Jeff, how you doing?

I'm doing great, John. I'm thankful for the opportunity to be here with you. Well, it's great to be

with you. You know, I just love the way you view leadership and the way you think about it,

how you view it, and your role as a pastor. you see yourself as a shepherd.

Can you talk about that?

You know, I think a lot of times, you know, that metaphor maybe even for business leaders might put that in a category, that that's only like clergy.

But really the biblical metaphor, and by the way, obviously, very cultural, a cultural connection to the Middle East and a lot of other cultures around the world, you know, but maybe not so much for Western society.

We probably don't know a lot of like shepherds and sheep, right? So it's like we

kind of understand it conceptually. But I think that, yes, I think that culture is obviously a

big topic on teams. And you work with football teams or or business leaders or management teams or

executives but the principles apply and that and so people talk about culture they talk about

EQ versus IQ talk about you know being a relational leader a a servant leader. And actually, the shepherd metaphor

is, is, is connected. And so for me, I love the idea that a shepherd smells like sheep.

And, and I, and I believe that if, if someone's a business leader, that that's what makes that undercover boss show or some of those so engaging to us because I think there's this consistent question of, do they like live in an alternate reality?

Do they understand when they all gather at that table and pass down these mandates? Do they

understand our customers? And we know number one reason employees transition. I mean, by any

statistic, bad manager, you know, bad, bad leader, bad, it's, it's very much, most of the time,

...