Lawfare Daily: The Limits of Cyber Subversion, with Lennart Maschmeyer
The Lawfare Podcast
The Lawfare Institute
4.7 • 6.4K Ratings
🗓️ 17 July 2024
⏱️ 48 minutes
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Summary
Eugenia Lostri, Lawfare's Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, talks with with Lennart Maschmeyer, Senior Researcher at the Center for Security Studies at ETH Zurich, about his new book, “Subversion: From Covert Operations to Cyber Conflict.” The book explores how subversion works and what its strategic value is, and how technological change alters its reach and quality. They talked about the promise of subversion as an instrument of power, the tradeoffs required for covert operations, and how current doctrine should consider cyber capabilities.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | The following podcast contains advertising. |
| 0:04.0 | To access an ad-free version of the Lawfair Podcast, |
| 0:08.0 | become a material supporter of Lawfair at Patreon.com slash Lawfair. That's Patreon.com |
| 0:16.4 | slash Lawfair. Also check out Lawfair's other podcast offerings. rational security, chatter, lawfare no bull, and the aftermath. |
| 0:31.0 | The analogy to warfare doesn't really work because ultimately this is not about blowing things up. |
| 0:37.0 | It's more about finding way into computer systems manipulating them. |
| 0:42.0 | It's the Lawfer Podcast. |
| 0:44.0 | I'm O'Henny and Lohthry, |
| 0:46.0 | Lawfer's Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, |
| 0:48.0 | with Leonard Mashmire, |
| 0:50.0 | Senior researcher at the Center for Security Studies at E.T.H. Zurich. |
| 0:55.8 | How can we learn from not only the new technology, but also from |
| 1:01.5 | historical cases of how states have used all the different tools they have at their disposal to hurt their adversaries. |
| 1:09.0 | Today we're talking about his new book, Subversion, which explores the promise and reality of cyber capabilities |
| 1:15.1 | in conflict. |
| 1:16.1 | So I want to start just by asking you about the rational for you writing this book, because |
| 1:22.2 | it provides both, you know, writing this book because it provides both you know maybe a more |
| 1:25.0 | traditional study of subversion as an instrument of power but then it also |
| 1:29.2 | offers this very interesting analysis of the role that cyber capabilities can play in conflict. |
| 1:35.2 | So what were you seeing either in doctrine or in actual operations that made you want to |
| 1:41.1 | write an entire book about this. |
| 1:43.0 | Well, this was a PhD project in the beginning, right? |
... |
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