Lawfare Daily: Andrew Bakaj on Whistleblowing and DOGE’s Activities at the NLRB

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4.7 • 6.2K Ratings

🗓️ 30 April 2025

⏱️ 35 minutes

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Summary

Andrew Bakaj, Chief Legal Counsel at Whistleblower Aid, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss a declaration by a National Labor Relations Board employee Daniel Berulis that DOGE facilitated the exfiltration of potentially sensitive information to external sources. The two also analyze the merits of whistleblower protections more generally.

Read more about the declaration here: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/15/nx-s1-5355896/doge-nlrb-elon-musk-spacex-security

For a copy of the letter penned by several members of Congress, go here: https://www.npr.org/2025/04/24/nx-s1-5375118/congress-doge-nlrb-whistleblower

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Transcript

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0:00.0	The following podcast contains advertising.
0:04.4	To access an ad-free version of the Lawfare podcast, become a material supporter of Lawfare at
0:11.5	patreon.com slash lawfare. That's patreon.com slash lawfare.
0:18.2	Also, check out Lawfare's other podcast offerings, Rational Security, Chatter, Lawfare No Bull,
0:26.4	and The Aftermath.
0:31.3	There's a lot of red flags in terms of why is this data being leaving the agency effectively
0:36.5	in the middle of the night?
0:41.2	Why are these containers here to obfuscate what's actually happening?
0:48.0	And how is it that somebody or something from Russia is trying to log in with all the correct credentials?
0:55.9	It's the Lawfare podcast. I'm Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and a contributing editor at Lawfare, joined by Andrew Backeye, Chief Legal Counsel at Whistleblower Aid.
1:02.7	You know, when it comes to the security, our national security, but also data security
1:08.3	of American citizens, I think we can all agree on.
1:11.5	We want to ensure that that's protected.
1:13.9	And the only way to know what to do is if you have people who can conduct an independent investigation
1:21.0	and those who know how to conduct an investigation in this space.
1:25.0	Federal whistleblower laws provide a critical, legally protected channel for employees
1:29.3	to expose potential government misconduct, waste, or abuse.
1:33.3	Today, we're examining such a case originating from the National Labor Relations Board,
1:38.3	involving allegations against Doge.
1:41.3	Daniel Berulis, a cybersecurity professional at the NLRB, recently made a formal whistleblower
1:47.3	disclosure, supported by a declaration under penalty of perjury alleging significant
1:52.2	irregularities involving the Department of Government Efficiency, better known as Doge, and access
	...

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