Hi everyone. This is Daniel Barcai, Executive Director of the Center for Humane Technology.

You've heard my voice recently as co-host on this podcast, but I wanted to reintroduce myself since I'm hosting solo this week.

Like Tristan, I come from a career in tech, and actually Tristan and I met at Google while I was working to build Google Earth.

I've also worked with venture capitalists and helped run a satellite imaging company called Planet Labs that helps us make better decisions about our changing world.

The larger theme of my career has always been around helping make the invisible visible, building technologies that help us understand our world around us and help us make better

choices. And that same motive is what led me to work here at CHT, helping to shed light on the

incentives and the psychology that shape the rollout of our technology, and hopefully to help us

arrive at a better technology ecosystem. Today's episode is one that plays with these questions

in an unexpected way.

You know, I've always wondered, we're living inside of a system of incentives that really doesn't

serve us and even sometimes actively harms us, you know, addicting us to our phones, causing

mental illness in our kids, polarizing our society into these cults and selling our data to the

highest bidder.

So why do we tolerate it?

Why is the system so seemingly stable the way that it is?

And why is there this cohesive social movement demanding change?

Well, our guest today has looked at these questions from a very different angle of people living under repressive government regimes around the world.

And what drives the kind of nonviolent social uprisings that led to their downfall? The core of status quo is obedience.

If people do not obey, rulers cannot rule.

Sertepovic was part of the resistance that overthrew the Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic.

And since then, he's dedicated his

life to supporting peaceful revolutionary movements around the globe through his organization, Canvas,

...