Hello and welcome to a new episode of Legacy. I'm Peter Frank O'Hopern. I'm Afwa Hirsch.

And this is Legacy, the show that explores the lives, events and ideas that have shaped our world

and asks whether they have the reputations that they truly deserve.

So this is episode two, Afwa, on Choir Mait and Kruber.

How do you think we did first time round?

Are we on track?

I think so.

I mean, it's a giant legacy.

It's a complex story.

You know, for our listeners, I guess we want to make sure that we paint the picture of the environment that he is living in so that his thoughts and actions make sense.

But at the same time, we really want to get to the legacy of this man. So, you know, we're doing our best to balance it. I've got a lot in my head. I'm trying to stay focused. Peter, you're really helping me keep on track. Well, I know this is one that really matters to you. When we got to the end of the first episode, we had Kruber heading off to the United States.

He was thinking very deeply about Africanism in general. He was thinking about the legacies of religion and of his own journey. And he's, I think, heading off to the US to try to learn more about a changing world in the early 1930s. Tell us about, he spent 10 years or so in the

US. Tell us about that process. What's he trying to achieve? What does he do? Well, he's going to

get a degree, like many aspirational young Africans who travel abroad. And, you know, the way I like to

think of it is that he goes into America, this young colonial African looking to gain intellectually and

become a professional person who can achieve utility and effectiveness back home. But he comes out

of this decade in America, really a different person, a leader, an organizer, and most importantly,

a thinker with a commitment to a very specific idea, Peter. And that idea is unifying black

people from oppression, not just in the Gold Coast, not just in America, but everywhere.

Just darkly afa on about Africa and about the difference of sub-Saharan and

North Africa, when we're talking about Africa and all Africans and pan-Africanism,

is in Krummer thinking at the moment about black people? Is he thinking about West Africa?

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