Thank you for listening to the Allender Center podcast.

I'm Dr. Dan Allender.

And I'm Rachel Clinton-Centen.

We're fiercely committed to providing hope and healing to a fragmented world.

And restoration for the heart.

Thank you for joining us.

Let's get this conversation started.

Thank you for joining us. Let's get this conversation started.

Rachel, I love this series because to think about what it means to live a life worth not just living, but inviting others to the goodness of the story of God. We've captured a few key elements, and the one I've been looking forward to maybe the most, is this concept of kindness.

And we've been interviewing some remarkable people, but I think we've got two of the most remarkable

people I know, especially in the realm of kindness. And I wonder if you want to interview.

Do you want to just introduce one of those persons?

Sure. So sitting beside me to join us in this conversation is my

incredible husband, Michael S. Chen. I'm sorry, the Reverend Michael S. Chen. And I would say he is an incredibly kind man. And I look forward to talking more

about kindness. As I mentioned in a previous podcast, like, I think kindness is so disruptive

for our good. But I think we often think about kindness as niceness or hospitality, which I think are a part

of kindness. So when I say he is an incredibly kind man, that means something.

And I'll introduce my beloved, and that would be Becky Allender. And I have said publicly and privately that whatever I

have learned about kindness and however I have changed, it has been thoroughly related to the

nature of her life and how she has loved me. So we've got two very kind people. And let's just,

let me just state an obvious. And that is, we're not asking either of them to debate this.

It isn't an issue of they need to let us know that there are times they're not kind. I live with

...