Today, it's great to have Katie Milkman on the podcast. Dr. Milkman is an award-winning

behavioral scientist and the James G. Dinnon professor at the Wharton School of the University

of Pennsylvania. She hosts Charles Schwab's popular behavioral economics podcast, Choiceology,

and is the co-founder and co-director of the Behavior Change for Good Initiative. She has

worked with or advised dozens of organizations in how to spur positive change, including

Google, the U.S. Department of Events, the American Red Cross, 24-hour fitness, Walmart, and Morning

Star. Her research is regularly featured in major media outlets, such as The New York Times,

The Wall Street Journal, and NPR. Dr. Milkman is so great to chat with you today.

So, Rachel, chat with you. Thank you for having me on the show.

It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. I've been wanting to talk to you for quite some time.

So, we have a mutual friend, Angela Duckworth, a mutual colleague, and she described you as

a master of human nature. She says, you figured out how to align your action with your goals

and dreams. Do you agree with that? No. We both know that Angela is much too kind, and

I think she, anyway, there are some areas. She is, but in this case, she may be right.

In this case, I think she may be right. What is that? What does that mean?

That's unlikely. Well, let me start off by asking, what would that even mean to wind one's

actions with their goals and dreams? What would that look like? And I do think you do it, by the way.

That's very kind of you to say. I suspect what Angela was talking about is, I think she and I both

share a tenacity. She might even call it grit that drives us. And we, I think, both have defined

in the last decade very clearly what it is we hope to achieve with our careers and our lives.

And we're both pretty focused on getting there. So, I would say, I suspect she wrote that,

because we spend a lot of time together working towards those goals. She knows exactly what my

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