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It's hard sometimes to recall Donald Trump before he was President Trump.

The president-elect again has been so ubiquitous in politics over a decade that you'd be forgiven

for glazing over his business and reality TV careers.

He is far, though, from the only high-profile figure

to have had a big career change. Think former actor Ronald Reagan, or think Arnold Schwarzenegger

who became governor of California in a second career. And it's not just US actors turned

politicians.

Before Vera Wang was an A-list fashion designer, she tried and failed to make it as a competitive figure skater.

In the UK, Professor Brian Cox played keyboards for pop groups Dare and D. Ream before he became the notable physicist. These career changes, they don't always work

quite so well, though. I can't think of a successful film starring the former Manchester United

footballer, Eric Cantanar, for example. And sometimes people change careers and then change back

again, realizing perhaps the grass wasn't greener on the other side of the fence.

I am Evan Davis. And in this episode of the decisions that made me, a new series of interviews with business leaders from the team behind the bottom line, I'm going to hear about one such story.

My guest is Julian Douglas, global CEO of the advertising

and branding agency VCCP. Now, if you're a regular listener to the bottom line podcast, which you can

find on BBC Sound, you might remember Dougie, as he's known, from an episode called

Side Hustles. What's it like balancing two jobs at once?

If you don't want to miss a single episode off the bottom line, by the way, do subscribe to us in the BBC Sounds app,

change your notification settings, and you'll get a message every time we publish a new episode.

But back to Dougie, because we were so interested in him from the bottom line,

we wanted to hear more of his career journey. And Dougie, for people who didn't hear that

...