Welcome to the Bullwork Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. It is March 28, 2023. You know, interesting

little footnote that probably only I keep track of. It was, I actually have to do the

math now. It was seven years ago today, almost exactly at this moment. I am sitting in my

studio in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on WTMJ. And my producer says Donald Trump is calling into your show,

which was weird because if he'd spent about 10 seconds reading about anything that I'd been doing,

he would know that I was never Trump, but there he was. And for the next 17 minutes, we had a,

I would say I'd rather candid and tough exchange of views. In many ways, that was a turning point

for me, I think. The good news is that back then, it looked like perhaps Wisconsin was going to be

a speed bump for Donald Trump. And he lost Wisconsin by double digits to of all people, Ted Cruz,

who is not the ideal fit for Wisconsin politics, but people in Wisconsin have this put his way.

People in Wisconsin were not buying what Donald Trump was selling around the country, and they were

willing to vote for anyone that they thought could stop him. And so I'm kind of having a flashbacks

because in 2023, I'm getting a lot of 2015, 2016 vibes. We have a very, very special guest today.

Many of you will remember him from the January 6th hearing, Judge Michael Ludig is a former judge

on the US Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, where he served for a decade and a half. And he

was frequently mentioned as a potential Supreme Court nominee during the Bush years. And he sent more

than 40 clerks into Supreme Court clerkships, and they were known as ludigators, which by the way,

is terrible judge, Ludig. That's a terrible phrase. I agree, Charlotte.

And one of those clerks was Ted Cruz. So we'll come back to that in a minute. Thanks for joining me,

I judge. I appreciate it very much. It's my pleasure, Charlie, to be on with you. Thank you for inviting me.

So you have been described as one of the most celebrated legal minds of your generation. And you've

played a really consequential role for the nation, both as a judge and a retired judge. And you

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