Welcome to the Bullwork Podcast. I'm Charlie Sack. It is January 25, 2023, and the leopards

are free and apparently headed to Ukraine. The Biden administration has greenlit the M1 Abrams

tank, which of course then is the signal that Germany has been waiting for to send tanks.

Also, in the news today, Mike Pence is going to get his time in the classified documents,

barrel, and normally this would be one of my favorite stories, but there's so much else going on.

Kevin McCarthy, who continues to be all in and protecting people like George Santos and

Marjorie Taylor-Grein, remember, I will never leave that woman. I will always take care of her.

Says that he's going to block Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell from the House Intelligence Committee,

because in his words, integrity matters. Oh, welcome to 2023. We are joined by Jonathan Alter,

longtime political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC. He is an author, documentary filmmaker,

columnist, television producer, and radio host Jonathan. It is good to talk with you again.

It's great talking to you, Charlie. I have been a fan of yours since you did what was arguably the

only tough interview that was done of Donald Trump in the 2016 campaign. Basically, everybody else

except you let him off the hook in one way or another. I still have a very vivid memory of that

radio interview you did with him pretty early on. Yeah, the funny thing about this, I actually

don't think it was that tough an interview. I was surprised afterwards to realize that he hadn't

had his feet held of the fire before. I thought I was actually kind of mild. This is kind of a

flashback to the fact in 2015 and 2016. I think America, and particularly the American news

meeting, was in complete denial about Donald Trump. They just refused to take him seriously.

It was inconceivable to them that he would ever be president. Like other Republicans, they figured,

yeah, just let him go. You don't have to pound him. I have to tell you, this morning I was thinking,

I wonder whether or not we're underestimating him again. Here's a guy who is increasingly isolated,

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