When John Starke, an author and the pastor of Apostles Church Uptown, moved to New York City, he quickly realized that he wasn’t all that impressive to his neighbors. It didn’t feel great at first. But now, he sees the ability to embody seasons of being unimpressive—even being embarrassed and humiliated—as a gift. On this episode of The Russell Moore Show, Moore and Starke talk about perseverance, suffering, and the power of Jesus’ presence. They discuss the temptation to be performative in ministry, how to embrace our limitations, and what it looks like to heal shame. Starke shares rhythms and practices for growing in understanding ourselves as hidden in Christ, which he writes about in his new book The Secret Place of Thunder. Moore and Starke’s conversation also includes reflections on their mutual friend, Tim Keller, who passed away recently. Tune in for an episode that looks thoughtfully at the human heart, the character of God, and the encouragement in Scripture to live as those hidden in Christ. Resources mentioned in this episode include: The Secret Place of Thunder: Trading Our Need to Be Noticed for a Hidden Life with Christ by John Starke Tim Keller’s Final Message to Redeemer Churches The Soul of Shame: Retelling the Stories We Believe About Ourselves by Curt Thompson The Gift of Being Yourself: The Sacred Call to Self-Discovery by David G. Banner Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses by Martin Luther “Jonathan Haidt Says Social Media Is Making America Stupid” “Social Media is a Major Cause of the Mental Illness Epidemic in Teen Girls. Here’s the Evidence.” by Jonathan Haidt A Secular Age by Charles Taylor “Millennial Burnout Is Being Televised” by Sophie Gilbert Preorder Russell’s new title, Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America, here! Do you have a question for Russell Moore? Send it to questions@russellmoore.com.Click here for a trial membership at Christianity Today. “The Russell Moore Show” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producers: Erik Petrik, Russell Moore, and Mike Cosper Host: Russell Moore Producer: Ashley Hales Associate Producers: Abby Perry and Azurae Phelps CT Administration: Christine Kolb Social Media: Kate Lucky Director of Operations for CT Media: Matt Stevens Production Assistance: coreMEDIA Audio Engineer: Kevin Duthu Coordinator: Beth Grabenkort Video Producer: John Roland Theme Song: “Dusty Delta Day” by Lennon Hutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices