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Hi everybody, Max here. Just to give you a heads up that today's pod is a little bit different.

It's a conversation we have with John Barnes about his new book on racism.

The book is far less about football than we imagined it would be but that's fine.

The boss says it's a tough listen. I'm not sure that's how we should sell it.

You can decide, I guess. There's lots of disagreement right from the off.

It's slightly more confrontational than I like life to be.

But lots of differing ideas, some perhaps quite uncomfortable moments,

but something we should all be continually thinking about and I think it was definitely worth doing.

And a subject we will obviously revisit. I hope you enjoy it.

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