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I think if we give up on positive some thinking as a country, we're going to have a lot bigger

problems than just a bad form policy. It's going to strip us of our core identity of who we are as a

people and, frankly, in my view, what makes us special. And now the good fight with Yasha Monk.

Today I have a very special guest, Jake Sullivan, who was, of course, the national security

advisor throughout Joe Biden's presidency.

Jake is very accomplished.

He was a Rhodes scholar, studied international relations at Oxford, went on together

JD from Yale Law School, was the

head of policy planning in the State Department under Barack Obama for a number of years and

has served in many other senior political roles. We talked about what is actually like to sit in a position like National Security Advisor,

how the pressures that are coming in on you, the way in which you have to make decisions,

is different from how journalists and pundits or political scientists might think.

We talked about broad conceptual questions like the

relative advantages of a positive sum mindset and a zero-sum mindset, wondering whether presidents

like Joe Biden and Barack Obama and perhaps George Dobie Bush were too invested in a positive

mindset, but also, of course, what the dangers of the zero-sum

mindset of Donald Trump might be. I pressed Jake on whether he believes in the madman theory

of international relations, whether the unpredictability of Donald Trump has certain advantages

that the predictability of Joe Biden

and other more moderate presidents did not have. We of course talk about some of the concerns

...