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I've been working on this for 25 years. It's a dark comedy with a shiny exterior. Please check it out at UnwantedBook.com. We're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're going to see that, we're. You've been one of the most influential people on the right for over a decade at this point, former Naval Intelligence Officer, and you're high up at Turning Point USA. And because of these fields of expertise, there were two big topics I want to talk to you about. I think me and a lot of other people saw you at turning point after Charlie passing and standing on stage holding up that rosary. And I know you have a good relationship with Erica Kirk. I want to discuss that first because, you know, as someone who is probably more comfortable as an anarchist, who's more comfortable with political violence than the average person, one of the big reasons I against it is the families. When someone is taken out even if they're an evil person which I do not think Charlie was by any means, there's a wife, there's kids so and so forth. And now for many people online, Eric A Kirk has been made into some sort of a hate object for reasons that I find unfathomable. And the cynical part of my brain would say, well, it's an op to divide the right and it's being done quite successfully to kind of break apart the coalition that got Trump a popular vote majority and electoral college, a large majority in 2024. I'm curious as to your thoughts on that whole situation and things you've said to Erica, if anything about it. Yeah, no, I mean, gosh, a lot there, obviously. And are there other elements that want to divide the right, right now? I think that's clearly going on. I think there's multiple

vectors of division that are happening right now. And it's, you know, beyond the specifics of what you just said, it's also a similar dynamic that we saw in 2017. So, President Trump gets elected in 2016. It's sort of this surprise to I think a lot of people in the mainstream. And then he becomes in power in Washington and then all of a sudden almost immediately you see these elements of the establishment, elements of permanent Washington getting into the administration, in many cases getting in directly to the cabinet and trying to push apart these sides of the movement to say, well, you know, we're true, MAGA, and you're not MAGA. And we saw this tension play out again and again and again within 2017 and came to the head, you know, really big. And I'll go back to your original question, but I'm just saying it just reminds me so much of that time frame that and here we are into the second year now, 27, 20, 26 of the second term, but it's still that same tension playing out. It's the grassroots versus establishment. It's mega versus the establishment. Who is mega? What is mega? It's like, I'm living through that time period over again because it's like, we had these discussions. We had these arguments. Are we going go to Warren Syria? Are we going to keep troops in Syria? Are we going to have serious strikes? All of these conversations and all of these tensions for those of us who are in a year or two book about this period in the new right, fantastic book, by the way. And it's so much of those same tensions coming up. Now, these are the Erica and Turning Point. That's a different situation, but just on the question of division, I think very much you see those similar forces at play. When it comes to Turning Point, you know, man, and I was actually just, I spent all day yesterday at Turning Point. We had an event over at ASU. So I was sort of working at Turning Point headquarters there in Phoenix. And I sit back and think I can't believe it's still just been six months. It feels it feels in a way like it's been so long since since Charlie was murdered but at the same time you know on paper that it hasn't been that long at all, as a matter

of fact, it's, you know, a couple of months. And it's just, I think the way our brains are wired now is totally different and that we perceive time totally differently than we did, you know, 10 years ago or certainly before we got to work. Yeah, can I say something? You see this vis-a-vis Iran where people are like, oh, it's been three weeks, how's this not resolved. And on the one hand, he's saying it's going to be done quickly, but any kind

of international operation, you wouldn't think there'd be 10 years ago. where people are like, oh, it's been three weeks. How's this not resolved? And on the one hand, he's saying it's going to be done quickly,

but any kind of international operation,

you wouldn't think there'd be 10 years ago.

The idea that it would have a beginning of the land within three weeks would have regarded as complete insane. Yeah, it's like, is that, oh, is that movie still long? Well, why not? put it at 1.5x, you know, put it at 2x and then just then we'll get to the end or, you

know, I'm getting bored. I want to get, because our attention spans have totally, totally,

you know, put it at 2x and then just then we'll get to the end or, you know, I'm getting bored. I'm going to get, because our intentions fans have totally, totally, you know, been twisted.

And, and, and I myself included, I think just we're surrounded by these types of technologies. And so it's, it's something where I do try to check in when I talk to Erica and I try to reach out, But Charlie used to do this thing every day where he would sort of send a Bible verse in

the morning to, it just over text.

And he knew it. You know Charlie used to do this thing Every day where he would he would sort of send a Bible verse in the morning to you know, it just over text and you knew with Charlie It was always It was always something he had been reading because it would just it would seem random But it would you know to Charlie it was like well, that's whatever section of the Bible you three in today a lot of Old Testament And so I you know even if I don't have you know anything really going on I'll try if I have a Bible verse, I'll just send that off to Erica, you know, even if I don't have, you know, anything really going on,

I'll try if I have a Bible verse, I'll just send that off to Erica, you know, like once

a day or so, because I know that that's what Charlie used to do. And it's, you know, it's kind of for me too, right, to sort of just check in and continue that tradition. But, you know, when you see her and when you talk about it, you know, whatever the drama of the day

is or whatever the, you know, the current viral, whatever thing is that's going on. And yeah, there's obviously, there's obviously tensions because of that. But you also realize that this is a mom, you know, you know, and you kind of read out the phone and, and, and, you know, and she's saying, hey, you know, like it's to quiet the kids down so she can talk a little bit. And that, losing Charlie the way we did, I've said this before, but it was upsetting, I hate it, but it wasn't surprising in a sense. that was of all the emotions I felt surprised wasn't really one of them because big part of us, I think, all thought that something like this is going to happen at some point for those who've been following political violence who've seen the right word, who'll look about it. I think it'd be Charlie, you know, that was definitely the, you know, something I didn't think of.

But at the same time, we had all, I think we had all who knew him said something to him at one point or another about those events that he was doing, being outside, being the eye like that, and not having secret service level protection the way that the president has or, you know, anyone in the administration, it's just you're more of a target because of that. And the piece that always gets me the most upset

is when I think about Erica and those kids and the fact that this isn't just a news cycle for them. You know, this isn't some, oh, we got you now because you said something on a podcast five years ago that slightly contradicts something that you said, no, this isn't just, it's not just, content, right? It's their entire lives have been irreckively changed. His daughter will never be able to have her dad walk her down the aisle. And that's just, just, that's just something that's so much bigger and so much more real and so much more human and gutting than, and to your point, the local violence absolutely affects the families forever, absolutely forever. And you know, with his little boy, their little boy, he's so little. I mean, he's, he's, um, it was I'm in two yet. And, you know, is, I think not even two yet. And it's just not, or no, he'll, yeah, he'll be two. And, uh, you know, it has no understanding of what's going on whatsoever. And we'll, you know, we will have to explain to him at some point. at some point, and some point his mom's gonna have to explain to him all of this. And so it's just something where when I see the attacks on Erica and when I see these

natures, oh so it's just something where when I see the attacks on Erica and when I see these, and they just always feels like these like these nitpicking, they seem so small when you're faced with the reality of what they have to live through every single day of, you know, dad went to work and he's never gonna come home again. And now every single moment that you would have had, and I think about it when I'm with my family. I think about it when I'm with my kids. It's just it's one of those things that's ever present that we could be sitting on the couch just watching a movie, watching a family movie, and it's like Charlie's family's never gonna have this. And so what do I try to do? you know, I try to just, I don't know, just try to be an ear. If that's possible, I try to say that I think that eventually this will probably get to a point where I think it kind of implodes under its own weight. A lot of the ridiculousness that gets bred because it's just, Jimmy, it's so silly. And, and that it, and at the same time, you know, you have to try to just be a, be a good friend, be a person. I don't know. There's no rulebook for this. There's no playbook that's, that's laid out for, you know, what you're supposed to do when something like this happens. And you know, I'm not going to sit there and say that everything that everyone's ever done from turning point has been perfect or myself or anything like that.

But you know, I'm not going to sit here and say that everything that everyone's ever done from turning point has been perfect or myself or anything like that. But, you know, I would just say that you got to have grace for people when they're going through something like that. You just have to have grace and I try to have grace for people at the same time because people process trauma in so many ways. It's crazy. You know, a lot of the clichés are kind of real about, oh it comes in waves and all this.

Totally true and the end. drama in so many ways, it's crazy. You know, a lot of the cliches are kind of real about, oh, it comes in waves and all this totally true. And even today, even even here, we stand six weeks or six months later. And see, I just did it. Oh my gosh, he just said six weeks. It's actually been six months. And, you know, you, I think I'm okay with it. And then all of a sudden something will hit me

and it just, it takes me right back to that moment.

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