I'm crossing the North Atlantic and in November is no fun on a little tin can of a ship. We're got out that maybe you had been smoking pot after the session was over and then you'll go again like pissed off at us. I should call us and John and I looked at each other and before I could do it, John. In amongst all this, here comes Aerosmith. You know, I never said no to them. What was your role in this? How was it? Get away, driver. Thank you so much for being here. Long time fan. Here we are together. Talk nerd stuff, recording, and of course the Bokin' All that is rock and roll. You've been in the epicenter of it now for a good 50 gosh, 50 plus years. 50 plus years, yeah. So even though it's the most obvious thing in the world, I'd like to start with the day you met John Lennon because it seems to me it's the watershed moment of your life because the moment you meet John Lennon, your life literally does change. Right. It's not like you met him and then your life changed later. I mean your life changed the day you met John Lennon. Oh yeah it did but um is that fair? I don't know if it's totally fair because I was on some kind of path already. But maybe you've put it ahead. This was unexpected. And if you did some research, you probably know that the whole Liverpool. No, that's the second part of my question, you see. Yeah, because the reason I say that is because you were on a trajectory, you were already working as an engineer, you were working at the record plan, and you worked your way up literally from janitor on up. Yes. So it's not to discount what you were doing, but I'm saying is that's the day, John Lennon, personally walks you into a session and says, can we give this guy something to do? And now suddenly you're working with Phil

Spector and all these other musicians. Yeah, it took a notable change. But if it's not, if you don't think it's fair to put it that way, tell me why it isn't fair to put it that way. Because that's why I asked the questions. I asked my questions in assumptions, but. It did cause a huge change in my life, but I didn't think that day that it was going to be the kind of change that it turned out to be. I see. But you look at looking back now, do you look at it that way? Yes. Okay. For both good and for both bad and tragic. Yeah. And for me, you know, like, led me on a really self-destructive journey after his passing. for him to recognize me from a newspaper.

Yeah. But for him to recognize me from a newspaper article in the Liverpool Echo in 1965 was very stunning. And my surprise was that he was surprised to meet me. me. I can fall the rooms walked into, here's the guy that was like, you know, we should have been just on the front pages of our local newspaper. We just released rubber soul. Yeah. And there's these two guys on a ship with their guitars and their band from like, so for people don't know the story. I actually knew the story. You and friend go over to Liverpool 1965.

It's the winter, I believe. Yeah, December. Okay. And you show up on a ship, you don't even have a... No, pay for it. For nothing. You just show up and you decide you're going to be rock stars in Liverpool. Not even a return trip ticket, but yeah. You know, you had that energy once where it doesn't matter. It's a kind of a beautiful blind faith.

Yes, and which turn out honestly to be accurate

because that has everything to do with why. that energy once where it doesn't matter. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a kind of a beautiful blind face. There's a, and which turn out, honestly, to be

accurate because that has everything to do with why when you, the day you meet John Lennon, you go, by the way, I was in Liverpool once. Yeah. And he knows the story is like he recognizes you from the story. Yeah. You know, he asked me. You know, in that picture in the newspaper, I've got a 1955, let's ball custom with the

big spree. Okay, was it with the one with the Diadario pickup? I can't remember. No, no, no, no, no. Original 1955 magnesium pickups. Okay. The second question he asked me was, you still have that. So now there's a musician. You say you still have that last fall. He wasn't much interest. He's interested in my partners guitar He had a mose right. Yeah, which I don't even think he knew what a mose right was that was but he wanted to know about that last Paul that's funny that he remembered yeah, well right there. I'll send you a picture. I'd love to see it. From the newspaper. But he just thought that it was a strange moment that he would run into me there. And that I was a guy who had the where with all to take a trip like that to Liverpool. I mean crossing the North Atlantic in November is no fun on a little tin can of a ship. But he invited me in to work on the record. Which is the Imagine record, produced by Phil Specter. The reason that John was in the room that I was in was to escape from Phil. fill. Yeah, for. He had a kind of a love-hate relationship with Phil, right? Yeah, very much so. In fact, when we were doing double fantasy and word got out that maybe we were smoking pot after the session was over and then Yoko would get like pissed off at us. And she'd call us, she'd call us down into her office in Studio One. And John and I would be standing there like two school children. Why, she yelled at us for, you know, what were you doing? You were like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she looked at me and she said, you know I can always get filled to do this, to do these sessions. And John had, because John had this point, hated him. I hated him. And John and I looked at each other and before I could do it, John, and it was, yeah. So as the story goes, he brings you into the session, you were editing a rumor or something. I was, yeah, transfers and editing. Yeah. So he brings you in the session, he says, can we give this guy something to do? Yeah. And you know, politics being what they are, suddenly, you know, you're being elevated into a spot that anybody would die for.

Absolutely. I mean there were two engineers on the date.

Yeah, they probably looked at what he's doing.

Yeah, I mean my boss, Royce Calla and Shelley Ackas, an amazing engineer.

And they were just like, I mean first of all when I didn't walk in the room, they said,

what are you doing? And all I could say was I'm with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, mean, first of all, when I didn't walk in the room, they said, what are you doing? And all I could say was I'm with him. Yeah, my new buddy, John. And for some reason, he took a liking to me and would ask me to do stuff. Eventually, he asked me where I lived. I lived in the village. He lived in the village on Bank Street. He gave me a ride home

a few times. He asked me if I knew a restaurant. He could go in a back door in Yoko. We did that a few nights and then one night he called me up. He asked me for my phone number. He called me up and he said, I have to go to this party. There's all these kind of nut cases here. I just I just want you to keep an eye on things.

Because I don't know them personally.

It was Abby Hoffman.

I hope.

Oh, is that a whole world, yeah?

Yeah, I just want you to keep an eye on things. Because I don't know them personally. It was Abby Hoffman, I hope. Oh, is that a whole world, yeah? They're whole crew and they were talking in the support, off the pig and talking about violence. And he was getting drunker and drunker. That's also what got him investigated by the FBI. Yeah. Because they was hanging out with these dissidents. Yeah. Yeah. So you got yourself in all that. They were using him. Of course. Yeah. That's pretty obvious. Yeah. He made quite a scene at that party. He grabbed a knife in the kitchen and went at this woman who had been yelling to off the pigs and neighbors like, you want violence? I'll show you violence. This is the sh** ever. Wow. And then we left. So how is Phil's Spector, two questions. What did you think of Phil's Spector? I mean, I'm not talking about Nestle by reputation when you're walking in, where you a fan. Mm-hmm. But I mean, now you're working with his Phil Spector, at least you're in his proximity. This is, you know, this is John just after the Beatles. This is, you know, and Phil Spector's still Phil Spector. Yeah, I was, I was rather disappointed because I had a lot of respect from I love this record. And especially growing up in this. Yeah, and part of the world. Right. And Ronnie was there. Very frequently. And, and Phil was frequently quite drunk or high. time he would be a kind of path asleep at the end of the board. I watched Reis de Cala very subtly take over the production of the record. Phil would lift his head every once in a while and more reverb. And I had no respect for Phil after that until I worked on the Christmas song. At that point, and John had no, you'd try and treat it badly and argued with them constantly. I learned a great deal about how to work with John from watching those sessions, but when we did the Christmas record, Phil was totally in his element, and that, to me, was like the most successful, I'd seen Phil work with John. It was just, it's a Phil specter production. Yeah. What's that live, I don't know, magical thing that he would do, where he would just be. Yeah, I mean look he had he had four acoustic guitar players in a circle with it with a Mike and Omni in the middle of the role strumming the same thing. I Mean that kind of thing. I never did that better. No, whatever that was. Yeah, yeah, because it's, there's a science I'm sure, but the magic is knowing what works or something. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Playing the tracks over the monitors in the room. Oh, you still tracks back into the room? Yeah. During overdubs. Okay. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Yeah. So did you, I mean, a big choir of, you know, kids and back to imagine, you know, and I don't know where in the sessions you came in, the sessions when I think I wrote it down, but it's like February to July 71 somewhere on there. But so, but you know, in any given time, George Harrison's on the record, Nikki Hopkins, Claus Vormis playing bass, Keltner's playing drums, who's the other drummer, Alan White. Alan White, yes, fame. That's a pretty interesting group of musicians too. You're not just work with John Lennie, you're working with a pretty A-Crewve talent. Yeah, I think I underappreciated it. I was so nervous to actually be there doing it. I just treated it like I was working with session guys. I was working with Steve Gad in 2011. Sure. So in a given day, were you biking? I mean, were you? Yeah, I was biking. Yeah. You know, lucky I had been mentored by Roy Sikalla. So that I knew. Also, you were already in this. I knew his biking technique. That would be a big deal if you're coming in this sort of adventure. Yeah, I mean, he didn't have to tell me what he wanted on up. I mean, you and I I understand studio politics is like an outsider just can't walk in. Yeah, I wasn't so much of an outsider. That's my point. That's the point I'm making. If you were just some guy he found on the street, I would have been a disaster because even if you were a genius, you're suddenly, you're in a theater. But you're because you're part of that family, okay, now, okay you're Give me and I was and I was Roy's baby Um I wanted to touch a little bit when you were in live-o pool and in 65 going into 66 because You were there for a brief time and and Correct me if I wrong, but you guys started doing gigs when you weren't supposed to in the city Yeah, trouble back out. But did you see any artist play around that time? Oh yeah, we hung out at the original Carve Club. I mean, what an incredible time to be there. It was amazing. I mean, it was like a dream come true. You know, it was better than anything, I guess. Ever have imagined it was. But it's the greatest moment in rock and roll history. Is that period of time? And we would hang out at the camp. The big plus of coming back, because I was already a working musician, but small time, locally. But when I came back from Liverpool, I had cred. I was a guy there. It's a deal. And we both, Eddie and I, we both hooked up with the angels, my boyfriends back. Okay. And went on the road with them and playing guitar, I'd be playing bass. Wow. And we just did a bunch of road gigs with the angels. That sounds pretty good. That was fun. But Liverpool, I wish I could remember all the bands that I saw down here. Yeah. We were playing in the suburbs with a pickup, a band that picked us up because we were kind of famous. But within two weeks we were apostate. You went viral basically in the modern parlance. Yes. And we left in shackles on a train to Southampton. So when you were young, somebody gives you a real, a real tape recorder in this sort of

begins your fascination with sound and that's where my father did. Yeah, and you started doing almost like these music concrete, you were recording different things. Were you editing the tapes? Oh yeah, I was, I also was putting my guitar, the mic, it's the acoustic guitar I had, I had no recording my guitar and there was a kid and letting their feedback and getting all these sounds. And it was crazy about the whole thing. It was a cheap tape recorder that my dad worked in a freight yard. So things used to fall off freight cars. cars. As they do. The whole neighborhood, he sold TVs and radios to the whole neighborhood I lived in, in Bronx. But he thought he was getting me a record player because I used to drive my parents' crazy wanting to use their record player as a kid in playing my, you know, Bozo under the sea, the tortoise in the hair, Uncle Remix, the son of the South. Yeah. So, and, you know, and they just wanted to listen to their big band records, my father's opera stuff. So my father, what he went into the freight card to get, he thought it said record player.. It said recorder. And it was a web core. Yeah. Yeah, good brand. It was something that came in from Chicago. I do. And that's right. I think it was from Chicago. And and he pulled that out. And we didn't know until I opened the the pressure. Yeah. That because he put it in, he had it in a bag and he put the bag under the bed. Well, actually, real to real at that time would have been more valuable than a record player. Yeah, but yeah, I wanted a record player, but this turned out to be much better. Well, it worked out. It worked out. Yeah. So, at what point do you make this transition sort of psychologically like from I want to be a musician too, I want to be on the other side of the glass and recording and the last band I was in was a group called privilege. And, you know, and I've been in is this the Isle brothers? Yeah, the Isle records. Yeah, they produced us.

Yeah. And we recorded it at A&R Studios. Okay. Fuller Mone's play. Yeah. But it was a wrong combination. What kind of music? It was... There's not a lot of information on that part of your life. Yeah, it's kind of psychedelic. We wanted to be Led Zeppelin, but a New York version with a Hammond organ.

So it was kind of psychedelic. Psychedelic, we wanted to be Led Zeppelin, but a New York version with a Hammond organ. Okay. So it was kind of blues based psychedelic. I played more psychedelic than vanilla fudge say. More like that, but more blues based. Okay. More Led Zeppelin-y. Cactus. Yeah, the Giacactus Fair.

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