It’s time to get weird

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, News Commentary, Philosophy, Society & Culture

4.5 • 11.1K Ratings

🗓️ 4 August 2025

⏱️ 59 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

The internet was supposed to set us free. But somewhere along the way, it became a tool for surveillance, extraction, and control. What happened? And is there still time to reclaim the weird, untapped potential of the digital world? This week, Sean is joined by Douglas Rushkoff. He’s a media theorist, author of Survival of the Richest and Team Human, and host of the Team Human podcast. They trace the arc of the internet from its utopian beginnings to its corporate capture, and explore what it would take to build something different. Along the way, they talk about the loss of weirdness, the logic of capitalism, the dangers of scale, and the difference between systems thinking and systems feeling. They also reflect on whether it’s still possible to use technology to foster a more connected and communal life. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Douglas Rushkoff, media theorist and host of Team Human We’d love to hear from you. Email us at tga@voxmail.com or leave a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your questions and feedback help us make a better show. Watch full episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Not long ago, I watched a talk by Douglas Rushkoff called Weirding the Digital.
0:06.7	It was a eulogy for the early internet and the idea that it was going to make the world smarter, more open, more connected.
0:16.1	I invited Douglas onto the show to chat about this talk
0:21.1	and about how the chaos of the early web was commodified and normified.
0:27.6	That's the conversation I wanted to have.
0:31.6	But what I got was so much more, more expansive,
0:36.6	more intense, more provocative, and more fun, really.
0:43.7	I'm Sean Elling, and this is the gray area.
0:50.3	Doug's a media theorist, author, and host of the excellent podcast Teen Human.
0:55.8	But more than that, he's a keen observer of the moment with a real gift for dissecting the system that shaped society.
1:04.3	It turns out his talk about weirding the digital wasn't just a eulogy.
1:10.6	It was more like a call to arms. By weirding, he means
1:14.9	rethink from top to bottom. And by the digital, he really means everything. And this conversation
1:23.1	reflects that. It is all over the place in the best sense possible. And I'm excited for you to hear it.
1:36.3	Douglas Rushkoff, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So we last spoke, as you recall, in 2019. And back then, you and I were
1:47.6	lamenting what the internet had become. I think you'd called it a vast anti-human infrastructure.
1:56.7	You talked about how we were being steamrolled by our technology, by our devices.
2:02.5	How are you feeling now in 2025?
2:07.7	The same, better?
2:10.3	A new hope.
2:14.4	Say more.
2:15.4	I feel like there's a new window of opportunity.
	...

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