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Hello, I'm thinking about great encounters we've had recently.

England versus Germany, Kuhnsberg plus Cummings,

which you can see on BBC iPlayer.

Hello, Laura.

Hello, and here on BBC Sounds.

Yes, there's a special podcast version of it as well, multiple episodes.

I mean, what was it like sitting down with this kind of now infamous person?

Well, on the one hand, I was never really sure until he actually turned up that he was actually going to turn out.

He's that kind of guy.

Well, yeah, I mean, he's somebody who doesn't hide from controversy, but he's also someone who, you know, he's never given a TV interview before.

And he first of all, because I only got to know him a little bit during the vote leave campaign.

And it was after the European referendum, I said, oh, would you do an interview to talk about how you think you won and how you ran the campaign and let was after the European referendum I said oh would you do an interview to

talk about how you think you won and how you ran the campaign and let's you know talk about how

you use the 350 million and did you mislead people and this that and the other and oh by the

why why do you want to blow up white hole and he sort of said to me yes I promise you I'll do it one

day little did I know that, you know, five years

later when he'd finally sit down to do an interview, everything else that would have happened between

that moment. So it was pretty strange from that point of view. But yeah, I mean, it was, well,

it was fascinating because whatever you think of him, and let's face it, for a lot of people. He's a kind of bogey man and pantomime villain, but he's somebody who was in the

room during lots of really important vital moments for the country, whether you're thinking

about Brexit or whether you're thinking about the pandemic. So it was pretty extraordinary.

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