One of the most important voices for me throughout this has been Professor O'Malley Bartov, who is the Samuel P-Sar Professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University.

I interviewed Professor Barthoff many months ago.

So much has happened, and I'm afraid to say

when we say so much has happened,

what we're talking about is a colossal amount of human suffering.

Tens of thousands have been killed, injured, vast amounts of trauma,

unspeakable trauma on a daily basis as we speak.

Now he's written a brilliant piece for the Guardian newspaper which was entitled as a former

soldier and historian of genocide I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel.

And I've been thinking about this piece since I read it, which was last week, so it's

probably just over a week ago. A huge amount of moral clarity of humanity, scholarly, evolution of thought, questioning.

So we're going to talk about that and much else, but first see, it's great to see you as ever.

Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

I just want to start just actually by this.

You talk basically in large part about an evolution of your own thinking

that you'd written in the New York Times last November, that as a historian of genocide, I believe there's no proof that genocide is now taking place in Gaza.

It's very likely that you say war crimes and even crimes against humanity are happening.

And then you warn, you say from history, it's important. crimes and even crimes against humanity are happening.

And then you say from history,

it's important to warn of the potential for genocide

rather than later than condemn it

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