Genocide. That's a term, which many of us have been using for a long time to describe Israel's onslaught against Gaza.

And many genocide scholars, such as the Israeli-American professor, associate professor for Holocaust genocide studies, Rassigal,

and Omar Bartov, the Brown University professor of Holocaust studies.

I'm listening to National, for example, releasing a report.

We all know, of course, South Africa's case against the state of Israel in the International Court of Justice.

Now, many have resisted that term.

And I'm really fascinated to speak to that our current guest.

Very great to see joining us, who is Shaill Ben Afram, who is an Israeli-American academic,

who has gone on a journey, I think it's fair to say, and has now recently posted that he has

come to the conclusion that Israel is committing genocide. Firstly, it's great

to see you. How you doing? Doing great. How about you, Owen? Not too bad. Not too bad.

I just wanted just to ask you straight away. Why did you decide now that Israel is committing genocide?

Well, I early on thought that Israel was not committing genocide as like just about every other

Israeli I know. And if you'd asked me as recently as a month ago, I would have been on the fence.

But I think that the overwhelming evidence has been clear.

And I've probably been denying it to myself for quite a few months now.

The turning point, there's been several turning points for me.

The major turning point for me was when I realized that the IDF was not fighting this war in order to defeat Hamas.

And that took me many months to understand because after the events of October 7th,

I, as a committed Zionist and Israeli citizen, felt that Israel needed to act in Gaza.

And I still believe that Israel needed to act

militarily in Gaza. And Israel has acted militarily in Gaza many times before, and I wouldn't

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