Hello, I am absolutely delighted to be joined by the brilliant Mark Owen Jones, who is associate

professor of Middle East Studies, the author of digital authoritarianism in the Middle East

Anglico Refreshing and Bahrain. Also, just confuse everyone. We do obviously have remarkably

similar names. We're not, not as far as I know, related. I'm sure if you go back long enough

in Welsh history, there is maybe some, who knows, some familial ties. He's to know.

Right. Son of John, that's what Jones means. So John got around.

Yeah, it's not the rarest name in Wales to be fair. I'm delighted to talk to you today,

particularly about misinformation in the horror show, which is of course the onslaught against

Gaza. And I have to say, look, every wartime propaganda, as long as there's been war, there has

been wartime propaganda, but obviously the nature of the digital revolution means there's far

more, I suppose, avenues now for that. And I suppose the Israeli state has a very sophisticated

propaganda machine. So I just want to start. One of the things you look at is about the issue

of what's called disinfluences, which I'm very fascinated with. What the hell is a disinfluencer?

And what's the role in the current horror? Well, the term disinfluencer is something I came up with

because of my research. What I've noticed is essentially it's someone who routinely spreads

disinformation, right? Disinformation and influencer, combine them, you've got disinfluencer.

And the reason I use that term is because I've noticed that there's people,

essentially who routinely spread fake news. And that can be the official Israel account,

it's linked to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or it can be others who seem to be spreading pro-Israel

propaganda in this case, or any other form of propaganda or disinformation. For reasons that seem

suspicious, and by that I mean they crop up every now and then to share an absolute whopper.

So just to give an example, which I think is always useful, one of the strategies that Israel

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