It has been, I think it's fair to say, a pretty bleak era as regards human rights for much of

our species, of course, which is the human species. And, you know, this is an age where we have

seen courageous struggles, but at the same time, a, I think, pretty straightforward

degeneration across multiple continents.

We've seen, of course, the horrors being meted out to the Palestinian people.

We've seen the invasion of Ukraine.

But there's so many other examples of brutal and murderous oppression, the deprivation of people's basic rights.

With that in mind, I'm really delighted to be joined by Ken Roth, who is the former and very

long-standing executive director of Human Rights Watch.

Of course, many of you will be very, very familiar with their work on a whole range of subjects.

He's also visiting Professor Princeton.

He's got a new book out, which is obviously absolutely crucial, called Writing Wrongs,

which actually has a slightly more optimistic sort of angle than I suppose perhaps I laid out there.

I want to start, though.

Great to see you, by the way.

How are you?

Nice to...

Thank you for me, it's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, I did start in a pretty

bleak place. It does feel quite difficult not to feel bleak in the current moment. I mean,

I think, I think just an example with, with Palestine and what's going on in Gaza is it's,

I think it's the fact, you know, I interviewed Razigal, the Israeli-American associate

...