Is the natural world evidence of design, or the result of random processes? Rachel G Jordan vs Michael Shermer hosted by Andy Kind

Unbelievable?

Premier Unbelievable?

Christianity, Religion & Spirituality

4.6 • 2.3K Ratings

🗓️ 23 May 2025

⏱️ 75 minutes

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Summary

In this episode of Premier Unbelievable? comedian and host Andy Kind welcomes marine biologist and Christian author Rachel G. Jordan, author of If the Ocean has a Soul, and sceptic science-historian Dr Michael Shermer, founder of Skeptic Magazine and author of The Moral Arc, for a dynamic conversation exploring whether nature reveals divine purpose or reflects impersonal forces. Drawing on Rachel’s book If the Ocean Has a Soul, today's guests tackle questions on the nature of the soul, biblical interpretation of creation and evolution, and what counts as truth in science and faith. From coral reefs to cosmic entropy, they wrestle with suffering, beauty, and the possibility of redemption through opposing worldviews. They explore awe, the hero’s journey, the implications of the gospel, and the call to care for creation. Can awe lead to belief? Does randomness rule the universe? Buy Rachel Jordan's If the Ocean has a soul https://amzn.to/4mnzuPx Buy Michael's book Conspiracy Why the Rational Buy the Irrational https://amzn.to/3SfPk0R

Transcript

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0:00.0	The Bible is God's big story. But where do you begin? Explore the Bible one step at a time with the Bible course new edition.
0:10.2	Taught by Andrew Ollerton, it's an eight-part course featuring Bible experts and personal stories.
0:16.3	With videos, guidebook and digital hub, it will help you feel more confident in understanding the Bible,
0:22.6	connecting with God's word and applying it to your daily life. Search the Bible course new edition now.
0:30.4	Hi, Tolladol Fisher here, editor of Women Alive magazine. This month, I spoke with the excellent Joe
0:36.5	Saxton about her mission to gather women leaders from all over the world.
0:40.3	Are you worried about aging? As the world tries to convince us to get a summer body,
0:45.3	Dr Becky Howey reflects on some biblical wisdom to combat comparison culture.
0:49.3	Are you feeling lonely? Daniel Finch considers how the church is responding to the loneliness epidemic.
0:56.2	Also in this issue, we champion 80-year-old former nun, Sue Parfit,
1:00.8	who has been arrested 28 times for protesting on climate change.
1:05.2	Woman Alive, for real women with real lives and very real faith.
1:12.3	Nature, we love to talk about it.
1:14.5	We love to anthropomorphise it, don't we?
1:17.2	Nature red in tooth and claw is a phrase that we've often heard about the shadier side of nature.
1:23.3	But then there's also a lovely quote from Lewis Carroll in Alice's Adventures through
1:28.0	The Looking Glass where it says, I wonder if the snow loves the trees and fields that it kisses
1:32.7	them so gently. And then it covers them up snug, you know, with a white quilt. And perhaps it says,
1:38.1	go to sleep, darlings, till the summer comes again. So two different ways of looking at nature. The question we're looking at today
1:45.8	is, does nature point towards design or randomness? And by association, do science and religion
1:52.8	approach truth differently? What role do awe and meaning and beauty play in shaping our
1:58.4	understanding of the world around us? Joining me are two brilliant guests. Rachel G. Jordan, to be known from now on as Rachel,
	...

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