Okay, so it looks like we're live, at least if my indicators, anything.

And this is, welcome to the second of the conversations about is TD dead,

and with myself, David and Kent.

So in the last part, we talked about our different experiences of TD, about how sometimes

it gives us great flow, sometimes not, and differently for different people.

Me and Kent find that flow more often than David does.

We also talked about how TDD and the notion of a self-testing

regression suite to get conflated together and that they are actually

different things to DDD being one way to get there but we finished the part

by really looking at a different issue which is can at times TDD lead to actual damage to

design and one of the things that TD proponents like myself often say is that

TD can actually lead you to discover good designs but David has seen things in the

rails world that he feels are the opposite of that, that of damage.

So really we want to look at, see if we can get around to three questions during this half-hour segment.

One is, is TDD the cause of this damage that David observes?

Secondly, is it actually damage?

Is it a bad thing or a good thing?

Because there's clearly disagreement about that.

And then thirdly, perhaps the meta question of how can we tell whether something is damage or not?

How do we judge that?

So since David is the one that observed the damage, maybe you could describe a little bit of what it is you see as damage. Maybe that's a good place to start.

Absolutely. We sent out in the show notes. I think there's a gist.

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